(This is a recent comment that the author gave me permission to move here as a separate post under her user name. I think it covers some very interesting points and would like to continue the dialog here as a post in its own right, rather than under a post published months ago. Demian~DreamSinger)
Hello Demian,
It has been a while since I’ve written to you. It has been a year since my friend “freaked out” on me and it is interesting to read what I wrote (in comments – editor’s note) and look back over the past year. I thought that a year would heal the wounds, but I do still struggle with depression. I have good days more than bad. God has brought many wonderful friends into my life and I am very blessed.
My “friend” did send me an email apologizing again for the way she handled things. I told her I forgave her and she doesn’t need to keep apologizing. I do struggle because she apologized for the way she “handled the situation”, she didn’t apologize for calling me a horrible friend, liar etc….So in my mind I know she still thinks these horrible things about me.
The most difficult day of the week is Sunday because that is when I have to see her at church. Her position is prominent and her ministry is growing very well. I have expressed to my husband that I would love to find a new church so that my worship time with God will help me grow, instead of struggling each week like I’m carrying a deep secret about this woman who can do evil things and I should be telling others and warning them about her so they don’t get “sucked in” like I was.
It’s so difficult for me to watch her be so cheerful and wonderful to everyone, people really like her. She is on top of the world and I am struggling daily. I still feel alone at times. I’m glad for her, I’m not jealous, I just want people to see who she really is so they don’t get hurt by her like I was. I don’t wish this on anybody.
If I could talk openly with her I would tell her how much her horrible words affected my ministries at church, which in turn, affected a lot of other people who I ministered to. I would tell her that she is the reason our home group fell apart. My husband stepped down from leadership in order to protect me from her and now no one has stepped up to be a leader so the group no longer meets.
I would tell her that I no longer direct the girls choir becuase I couldn’t cope with the depression her harsh words caused and buying groceries for my family was a huge task for me, let a lone ministering to others.
I would tell her that words can really hurt a person and she should choose them wisely.
Thanks for listening while I vent my feelings. I think of you often and hope all is well with you!
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Hey dpling, it has been a long road, hasn’t it? But you *have* come a long way and it makes me feel good to see you taking more and more of your power back.
You write, “I do struggle because she apologized for the way she “handled the situation”,she didn’t apologize for calling me a horrible friend, liar etc…So in my mind I know she still thinks these horrible things about me.”
That’s the way it is with toxic people. It’s a huge leap for them to even apologize in the most general of terms, but to be held accountable for specific things, words spoken or action taken, that’s too much for some people.
You know you’re talking to someone like this, because after they say they’re sorry, they *expect* everything to be okay. There’s no space for you to express your feelings, no time for you to recover or deal with the impact of their actions. *They* say they’re sorry, and that’s it. Everything is supposed to be fine. After all, *they* said they were sorry, isn’t that enough?
No, it’s not. Because it’s not just about them. A true apology provides space for the other person to express themselves and time to resolve their feelings. Another person factors into the equation, and unless you’re afforded this, their “apology” only serves to make you feel even more invisible…and then bad for not truly forgiving, but it’s because you weren’t really given the opportunity or the conditions to do so.
It’s hard to tell what’s going on in her mind, whether she thinks these horrible things about you or not. That’s one hook you will want to release yourself from.
And it sounds like the “pretending everything’s okay” is the hardest part for you, and I do understand. Play acting can become its own kind of abuse, especially when you are witnessing the same kind of dynamics occurring with other people.
“I would tell her that words can really hurt a person and she should choose them wisely.”
Very well spoken. It’s a lesson we should all heed.
Hi Demian,
Guess what? I wrote a letter to my friend who “freaked out” but I didn’t send the letter. I discussed it with my husband and I am at the point where I have great satisfaction knowing that I don’t have to send the letter, that I have kept her out of my life and there is a lot of power in that. As you said, if I send the letter I will give her a chance “to get back in” and I absolutely don’t want that. It’s more important for me to keep her “out” than to send the letter. It has given me great satisfaction and empowerment to write the letter, as a vent, and then not send it because I know it will not accomplish anything positive. She will absolutely freak out again if I send it to her.
Last week she asked me to be a prayer coordinator for the ministry in which she is regional director. Last year I was the prayer coordinator and she relieved me of my position with out telling me and took over the job on her own, because that is when she was angry with me and freaked out on me. So, with that in mind, last week I responded to her by saying that I prefer she find someone else to do the job because I didn’t feel like I did an adequate job last year. Now, I know I did a super job, but I did not want to deal with her and so used myself as a scape goat. She wrote back saying she thought I did a really good job last year, but that she would find someone else. I ask myself, why did she ask me to do it this year, when she treated me poorly last year? I don’ t care. I have great satisfaction knowing that I was in control and did not let her control me.
Originally, her contacting me for this ministry is what set me off again and prompted me to write the letter that I never sent, but I had time to mull over what you said and I feel so much more empowered now. In fact, I told my husband that I think I will be OK on Sundays when I see her because it’s so freeing to know she does not have control over me. I can say “no” to her. I know that I am a competent, intelligent woman, who has a lot to offer. I am never going to allow someone to make me think I am a less than that again. What was I thinking? UGH! How could I have let her influence me so much? I praise God for opening my eyes and for bringing you into my life to help me in this journey. Aren’t you glad that you seem to be a part of my “AHA” moments….like when I discovered she had narcissistic personality traits?
Thanks again for being so encouraging, understanding and empathetic. You truly understand what I am experiencing, like no one else, and it’s so helpful for me. I hope to meet you in person someday.
Love,
Dpsling
Congratulations, Dplsing! You found a solution that worked for you! Sometimes it’s helpful to convey how you feel to another, and sometimes it’s not. Based on what you shared with me, I think you made the right choice for yourself.
It’s normal to want to understand why a person acts in a certain way, but sometimes there’s just no answer. Some things are hard to follow because there really is no logic. This is usually true when agendas are the motivation and not anything someone does or doesn’t do.
It sounds like you’re in the process of reclaiming your power. I can’t tell you how happy I am for you!
As far as how you could let her influence you so much, that’s natural with people we let into our lives. Their opinions and behavior matter, because they matter.
But even if she didn’t mean anything to you, having someone freak out on you like that is a assault, and all assaults are going to impact the target, no matter who they are.
Not every relational aggressor is a narcissist, but they do share many traits in common. I just recognized some of those dynamics in your sharing with me.
The thing I like about AHA moments, isn’t when we diagnose someone, but when we free ourselves from the tyranny of confusion. Understanding can be extremely liberating, and when we stop needing to figure out what’s happening, we free that much energy into deciding what we want to do about it.
It’s my pleasure, Dpsling, and I’m honored you’ve shared so much of your journey with me through private emails and here. It’s always a learning experience, and your reclaiming your power has so made my day!
Here’s to our paths crossing some day.
Many blessings,
Demian,
~DreamSinger
Dear Demian,
I am finally getting a chance to write to you. I read your blog on “Acting Like it Didn’t Happen” It was very helpful to read that so thank you for sharing it.
As you know, Sunday’s can be difficult for me but ever since I wrote the letter that I didn’t send it has been a turning point for me and I am doing MUCH better…not perfect, but better. This AM I played my french horn during offertory in our church service. Afterwards, my abusive friend made the point of coming up to me and said “You did a beautiful job, and of course I alwaysjust, oh, love it when you play.” She was so animated by swinging her arms and very emphatic in expressing her self. All I could think in my mind was “She’s just putting on a show. She’s such a liar and a fake.” I know I did a great job, but it meant nothing coming from her. I am playing for God, not her or anyone else, so in the big picture it doesn’t matter, but I felt strength knowing that I didn’t feel anger or low self esteem around her. I only felt like I could see her for who she truly is and it felt great!
Demian wrote: “I’m not talking about tip toeing around the issues. I’m talking about common courtesy, speaking clearly and respectfully, sticking to the issue at hand and refraining from personal attacks or overall general statements as to your worth as a human being.
Intimacy means you are safe enough to know where you stand.
There is no safety with this woman. She gave you no indication there was anything wrong or that she would be capable of such an emotional tirade. You will be walking on eggshells around her from now on – especially since she has shown no remorse for what she may have put you through or even attempted to understand how you feel.
You don’t need to be reaching out to her. That you are capable of being nice to her when your paths cross, that you are willing to be civil is a testament to your own character”
I do completely agree with Demian here for the most part, this woman sounds like this had been building up in her for a long time and to let rip like that all of a sudden must have been very frightening for you.
I also, though, recognize myself in this woman’s behaviour with an ex boyfriend of mine with whom I felt so angry when he chose to throw away our two year relationship because he didn’t want to move out of his parents home, despite him being 36 at the time! I had put up with a relationship that was going nowhere for a long time, he took me for granted and when I hung up on him in anger but apologised immediately after he basically did what Demian advises you to do here – I have not seen nor heard from him since, he refused to meet with me when I got back! What had happened was that in an effort to try to regain the get up and go that the relationship with him had frankly taken right out of me, I had taken an opportunity to teach abroad for 6 weeks for a friend and was due back in three weeks.
I don’t believe that I deserved to be treated like that just because I got extremely angry with him once, which culminated in my hanging up the phone on him. He threw away our two year relationship because he was still tied to the apron strings and my own life had been on hold thinking that we were going somewhere when all along he had no intention.
In the three weeks I was away before we split, despite my being in a rural area with no way of contacting him other than by text, he limited our phone calls (5p per minute) to ten minutes a week even though he worked full time, earned £16,000 per annum and lived with his parents – zero bills to pay except £150 per month keep! When I would speak excitedly about how enjoyable my teaching was I would be met with grunts and silence. He wasn’t interested & I believe now that he was jealous. He was immature, resentful and controlling. He truly deserved my final outburst in which I told him that I couldn’t hang around any longer waiting for him to grow up! (I’m 7 years younger)
He knew what i had gone through with other women, I have been bullied by other women /experienced RA throughout my twenties and took the teaching post to regain my confidence as I had left my job due to being bullied yet again. He knew how hard it was for me to trust anyone, including him, and to this day I remain in a certain amount of shock how he was there one minute gone the next. The feeling of betrayal is unreal.
I got angry with him because I loved him, I loved us and I couldn’t believe his immaturity was making him throw it away.
I was his first girlfriend as well – really I suppose the red flags were everywhere!
I suppose what I’m trying to say is that not everybody who gets extremely angry/flips out on someone on one occasion is to be considered demonic and avoided at all costs.
There are two sides to every story and while I am not suggesting at all that this woman was corect in how she treated you dpsling – I know RA & nasty women too well, I can well believe it – I wonder if there was anything about your relationship up to that point that might have given you some indication she was not happy? Perhaps her overloving behaviour towards you now is her attempt to make amends – how long are you going to hate her for that one outburst? Is she really as evil as you believe she is? Might you have been bearing a grudge for too long against this woman or is it justified?
Now I don’t know her or the situation and I know how evil women can be, I am asking this just so that you can consider an alternative viewpoint, a bit of self reflection I suppose, sorta playin devil’s advocate! I guess because I perceive such a similarity in the way I verbally exploded on my ex – I can almost see him reading this blog and deciding that he was going to follow Demians advice and do that to me!
But you know our relationship was becoming rocky for months before – the signs were there when I look back. Beign away gave me the clarity to know how I really felt. My anger was passionate, I loved him and our relationship you see, I cared about our future. He was about as caring as a dead fish lol!!
Were the signs there for you and this woman too? Her outburst may not have been as out of the blue as you think, y’know?
I hope that you, I, Demian and all people heal from our wounds whether at the hands of women or men xxxxxxxxxx
Demian wrote: “Intimacy means you are safe enough to know where you stand”
Actually you know, I never really did know where I stood with him. He was the one who was emotionally abusive with the silent treatment, I am very much a communicator, he always knew how I felt.
I look back now and realise I was no more safe with him than I was with the women at work who were bullying me. Even when one of his friends displayed RA towards me 6 months into our relationship he later told me not to speak ill of his friends!!!
Interesting that men can display RA as well, he was an expert haha!
Gaia79 xxxxxx
Hi Gaia,
As you can see it’s been a while since I posted here. Life happens, and most of my time has been taken up this year caring for a dear, dear friend, who finally passed away this past June. I am being gentle on myself while I grieve this loss, before I jump back into maintaining this site again.
I want to welcome you Gaia. I hope to have this blog active again soon.
I did want to say that in dpsling’s case, it wasn’t just someone losing their temper and hanging up on them. People can act badly in heated moments, and communication is for healing those mistakes and understanding.
I do believe there were signs, but nothing prepared dpsling for the direct attack, for which her attacker had never taken responsibility.
So it was the combination of other inappropriate behavior and the absolute refusal to address the hurt she had caused, or any hurt, that dpsling chose to distance herself from this person.
People are allowed to make mistakes. They are not entitled to blow them off at another person’s expense.
It sounds like, in your case, as painful as it may be, if he was as unfeeling as you say he was toward your feelings and what you were experiencing, his choice to not have anything to do with you might have been a blessing in disguise.
I’ve been in similar situations, and always regretted trying to reconnect with someone who I would have been better off leaving alone!
Demian,
~DreamSinger
Hi Demian,
Thank you so much for your reply. Sorry to hear about your friend, hope you feel stronger with every day that your friend is in heaven xxx
I appreciate your response so much as I suppose I am still blaming myself, feeling like I deserved the way he treated me and when I saw this thread I thought “Oh no! Was that me? Maybe he was right to avoid me!”
But now I see emotionally as well as
intellectually that I was not the same as the horrid woman who hurt dpsling. That I am as loving as I ever was and I did not deserve his contempt, it was indeed a blessing that he walked away! Thank you!
I just watched the Dr Charisse Nixon Phd clip on Learned Helplessness over on Youtube. I recognise myself in that. Though it has been a year, his behaviour has caused me to shut down from the world almost altogether. I was already recovering from female RA/being bullied at work while he and I were together and was slowly trying to build up trust in others, especially other women.
Since then I have become almost agoraphobic and have sabotaged myself socially and professionally. My entire outlook has changed and I now recognise this as a form of learned helplessness. I can relate to people superficially but any more than that and I withdraw. I was supposed to work on setting up a business last winter and was attending a local womens organisation who help with planning and funding. One day I just didnt go back and now I realise it was because I was getting close to them all – I was feeling vulnerable. Same with not attending tutorials (I study via distance learning)
it’s like something has snapped inside me and I’ve stopped trying to go out there and engage with the world, even though I was always very sociable and am very well liked by others – much moreso than him lol! I have lots of women wanting to be my friend and quite a few men have approached me over the last year but I am so afraid.
What he did was RA, it was the silent treatment, sending me to coventry. I see that now, that men can do it too.
I am going to have a look on amazon to see if there are any books on overcoming learned helplessness.
Thank you for your reassurance that I had a moment of anger, that I am not like dpsling’s aggressor and that I did not deserve my ex’s treatment of me!
With love and light to you, dpsling and your friend in heaven xxxxxxxxx